PODCAST – The Dangers of Chaos Magick


The Dangers of Chaos Magick


Some thoughts on how there may be some dangers to the Chaos Magick Theory and on why I will probably never be on TV debating people. Having just listened back to this, i seem to be quite nervous and disjointed sounding on this one.  The hope was that I get better at these things rather the worse… :/





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5 Replies to “PODCAST – The Dangers of Chaos Magick”

  1. Seeing as you solicited opinions, here are some thoughts on the points you raised.

    The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it.
    ~Neil deGrasse Tyson~

    As a Chaos Mage, I tend to think of the universe in terms of probability, relevance, perception and usefulness rather than True or otherwise.

    For a start, we cannot know the ultimate Truth of the universe. We are ill equipped. Our senses are tuned to such tiny areas of the spectrum’s of light and sound, of taste and smell and touch, that we are aware of almost none of it. Of that which we -are- aware, we filter out almost all of it before it reaches our consciousness, and even if we could perceive it, we simply don’t have the mental faculties to comprehend it all. Infinity does funny things to ones mind!

    However, for most of us, it isn’t particularly important*. Does it matter if the Universe was created in a Big Bang? Does it matter if life on Earth originated here or fell from the stars? Does it matter if [insert fascinating scientific fact/theory]. Our lives pootle on regardless and we still have to face and interact with our day to day reality as we perceive it.

    *(Don’t get me wrong. I love science and the scientific method. I am fascinated by our world and the Universe we live in, and just because we cannot know everything doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive to know as much as we can about our Reality)

    For my money, the universe (specifically the little corner of it I live in) is made of energy with highly chaotic properties that when viewed on a human scale behaves in a probabilistic manner. Things, events, inhabit a place on a scale that goes from highly unlikely to highly likely (I believe that virtually nothing is certain or impossible). The laws that we see around us are much more to do with sets of probabilities that recur frequently enough to be relied on. With enough practice, wisdom and luck, that is enough to navigate a reasonably successful life.

    Yet, amongst the seams of reality there is chaos. Infinite probability waiting to manifest. There are patterns that ebb and flow unseen, that draw or resist ephemeral influences upon our existence. As magicians, we seek to tune in to these patterns and make them visible in our minds, to learn from them, to learn to wield them in our favour.

    But this is a highly individual process. Just as if I were to say “Imagine a tree”, each and every one of us would come up with something different. There may well be similarities, but if a hundred people were able to -exactly- draw on paper what was in their mind, we would have one hundred different trees. There would be shared ‘tree-ness’, common to them all, the essence of tree, if you will, but would any one of them be more True than any other? Could more than one of them be True simultaneously?

    This, right here, is the problem with discussing the ‘Truth’ of Magic or Reality even with other Magicians (never mind Muggles*, who will still be arguing over the word ‘Magic’). Magic is not interested in the ‘Truth’ (individual Magicians may be, but Magic is not).

    *(Not meant as an insult, just a definition)

    Magic is a the subjective experience of an individual encountering the universe, and because the subjective experience of an individual is True to that individual, it is still True even when being discussed with a Mage who has had a diametrically opposed experience.

    Hail Eris,


    1. Hey Sepherion,
      For some reason I am only seeing this now so I apologise.

      I can’t say I disagree with anything you say there, but I guess what I am pointing to, in relation to the example of “Imagine a tree” and that we all see a different tree, is the wonder about whether there is an actual objective TREE, or even TREEness, that exists outside of our subjective, or even collection consciousness. Do tress actually exist and if so does that imply that other things actually exist, including universal laws or Truths? And if so, should we look for them or is only the subjective Truth worth the fight, as objective truths MAY be impossible to discover.

      Any of that make sense?

      But yes, I absolutely agree with your last paragraph – my issue is, and not just with magick – it’s also with a lot of post-modern ideas too, is that a problem arises when you started demanding that other people take your subjective truth and experience as capital T truth. I feel that’s the hole we fall into most often and something I see all the time in occult/chaos magic circles.

      1. Hi Tommie,

        Having since heard your podcast “Why I Quite Doing Magick”, I can tell you from personal experience, that this IS a cyclical experience, especially when the ‘Mundane’ world rears it’s head and begs for attention*.

        *(Congratulations to you both on your wonderful news, by the way. A truly magical adventure awaits you. 🙂 )

        I feel that the search for (capital T) ‘Truth’, despite being potentially unobtainable, to be a noble goal. For me, that IS the Great Work. If I ever find it, though, I am completely certain I will never be able to explain it to anybody. It would fall squarely withing the realm of Unverifiable Personal Gnosis. As it is, if I ever make the mistake of talking to my friends in the pub about this sorta thing, I come off as being… well… a crazy old wizard. Take the advice of those who came before, sure, but it is our personal adventure.

        However, the trouble with the occult, is it does tend to attract the crazies and, if you look around, Chaos Magicians, especially, are perceived as being fucking loons. Maybe not the well known ones, but certainly the 15 year olds, spouting Lovecraft incantations and rolling in mud, cos, immanentize the eschaton, or whatever. Baby mages are always going to proselytise. They have discovered the new thing and they just have to tell everybody. They have the ‘Truth’, dontcha know!
        Everybody thinks they have the ‘Truth’. The Christians, the Muslims, the Buddhists, Thelemites, Chaotes, everybody. Give them three pints and they will happily tell you.

        One neither needs to prove one’s point of view, nor ‘believe’ anothers. It is our personal adventure. If we are wise, the dialogue with other Mages, of any persuasion, is an opportunity for us to vocalise our own experiences (where we rarely get the opportunity with muggles), and to listen to anothers. If we are wise, we are maybe able to learn a new spell or a pointer to a new direction of research. If -they- are wise, so may they. Frequently, though, “they” are not!

        But then, I rarely get involved in internet forums! Down that path, madness lies!

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